Pathfinders: Embracing the multiple-in-one with Keva Epale
A creative tête-à-tête about human-centric branding, normalizing imposter syndrome and trusting the timelessness of our art.
Welcome. Pathfinders is a series of conversations with ordinary folks living extraordinary lives. My hope is that these stories inspire and give you the courage to chart your own unique path in life, knowing you’re not alone. If you’re interested in being featured, please fill out this form or email me at thebarefootbeat@gmail.com
My conversation with
was a long time coming and the result of trusting perfect timing, a theme that came through repeatedly as we got to know each other. The founder of the Keva Epale Studio, a branding and storytelling studio in France, Keva is also an art director, illustrator and branding enthusiast. She’s the author of , , and .
More than that, she is one of the most genuine, wise, and open-hearted people I've had the pleasure of interacting with.
Before we sat down face to face, we exchanged a series of Q&A’s via voice notes, sharing more about our creative journey and process. You can check out the result of our little experiment below and sign up to be matched with your own creative pen pal here!
After spending a week chatting back and forth, it was clear there was so much more to explore together. It was so fun exchanging ideas in real-time and capturing them for you. I learned so much from Keva’s experience as a creative professional and I know you will, too. The full transcript is below, along with some of her gorgeous illustrations.
Video interview
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Illustrations
Transcript
Mariah- Hi, Keva
Keva- Hi, Mariah
Mariah- It's so good to sit with you again. For those that don't know, we've been kind of having this back-and-forth conversation between creatives, sending little voice memos to each other across the sea, which has been so lovely.
So I'm really excited to get to know you a little bit better and also share you with others. And we just kind of wanted to have a conversation today. So a little bit more than the voice memos, which has been a really fun way to kind of ask each other questions about our creative process and share kind of our own journey along the way. I did want to kind of just give a little brief introduction for those that might not be familiar with your work. Let me find it here. I had your Substack pulled up. So you write your creative letter as well as a few other letters, your branding letter, and then can you tell me the one in French? I don't want to mispronounce it.
Keva- Oh, the one in French is an experimental one and not many people read it, but it's called Pensées (pas si) volatiles and it's going to be on my Substack. I'll create an issue about it in a few weeks, but it's called Pensées (pas si) volatiles. These like thoughts that are not that. How do you say it in English? Volatile. I know you understand French, so maybe you can help me with that a little bit.
Mariah- But it's very rusty and it was never really that good to begin with. But you say you are a creative being, navigating multiple in one and vice versa. Illustrator, art director, branding enthusiast and writer, which, I love all of those things. I think that summary of being like multiples in one is such a great description of a creative. And so I'm wondering if you have a little bit more to share about that and how you kind of came up with that description of yourself.
“The fact that you navigate from one field to the other. I think it's a superpower. And if we start speaking that it is a superpower, guess what? Well, with time and with all that goes with it, hopefully it will become a superpower that people can maybe acknowledge and be inspired to hold on it.” -Keva
Keva- Wow. It's never easy to describe oneself, I think, especially with the letter. I was trying to just nail down some specific things that I wanted to share, and then I came a few weeks ago, I read my past description. I thought to myself, like, you know what, let's go down to earth. Let's be straightforward and a little bit more than usual. And it challenged me to just, okay, how would I define myself today? And it's not something that people always want to use multiple in one, but it's something that I've kind of nurtured and cultured and more and more, and I'm accepting it because that is just how I proceed.
The fact that you navigate from one field to the other. I think it's a superpower. And if we start speaking that it is a superpower, guess what? Well, with time and with all that goes with it, hopefully it will become a superpower that people can maybe acknowledge and be inspired to hold on it.
I'm navigating and it's perfectly okay. So I just decided to be straightforward. And I love the fact that I can express myself in different ways. Not perfectly, because I know the journey that went to the moment I started.
Now even being able to write to state that I am a writer, that is so huge and it's massive.
Mariah- I can relate, for me too.
Keva- Yeah, so massive. So I think it's just looking at what I've done so far and just realizing that this is it today. This is who I am and I'm okay with that, with that title of being multiple in one and why not?
Mariah- I love that. And I think it gives us permission to kind of embrace all of who we are, which you would know as someone who works in branding, sometimes we're really encouraged to kind of fit into a certain box and brand ourselves in a certain way. And so pushing against that limitation while also being succinct, like you said, being straightforward, being clear about who you are, I think can be really challenging.
Keva- I agree.
“Sometimes we're really encouraged to fit into a certain box and brand ourselves in a certain way. And so pushing against that limitation while also being succinct, like you said, being straightforward, being clear about who you are, I think can be really challenging.” -Mariah
Mariah- I've seen a lot of people kind of give themselves permission to change their bio or even change the tagline of their newsletter or just kind of experiment and play with it a little bit. And I think that's just a lot more realistic as we continue our journey as creatives to give ourselves that flexibility, to say, you know what, this doesn't really fit me anymore. I'm going to adapt a little bit or change it around a little bit, try on something else and see how it goes.
Sometimes we're really encouraged to fit into a certain box and brand ourselves in a certain way. And so pushing against that limitation while also being succinct, like you said, being straightforward, being clear about who you are, I think can be really challenging.
Keva- Yeah. Because after all, it is a space that is our own. Nobody's there telling us, go this way, go that way. So we have kind of ownership of it. So the more we are able to understand what ownership means, then we allow ourselves to change when it fits, when it feels like it's the right time to change. Because every day things change.
Every day we have new understandings of what we're doing and we realize things. So once you have that realization, just do it. You're the one, the face, the voice, whatever it is, and it's okay. It's true that, as you said, in branding and many other fields, you have to be so well defined, so well rounded. People have to just understand that you do this, this and it just has to be kind of perfect, which is kind of not realistic. It's not.
I don't believe in that. I like the fact that it's organic, that it can change. And I try to state it really up front. Like, when you enter my studio, when you enter my products, when you enter my content, just know that you're going to find many more things.
And that's how I proceed. And I think any creative can understand this thing, is that we are more than what we actually show, and that's something that is human-centric. So don't think that you're going to read Mariah’s letters and think that you're going to have just one angle of her. No, she's more than that. And by you entering that angle, you have the opportunity to discover many other angles. I guess that's also what makes people get magnetized to you, because there are these different things that they didn't expect. You know what? Experiment.
Mariah- Yeah. And I think as an artist, as a creative, my hope is always that in sharing my writing or poetry or whatever it might be, people can see something in me that's reflected back in them. It's like it almost gives them a different lens to see themselves.
And so if they bring the totality of who they are to the experience, and I'm doing my best to bring the totality of me to the experience, then I think there's this really lovely mirroring that can happen. It's like I see myself reflected in you and vice versa.
I think that definitely showed up in our conversations when we would send each other little memos and questions. There was a lot of resonance there, which I think, at least I went into it with very little expectation and just like, an openness, and it was really delightful to kind of see what unfolded as we both just showed up and didn't really have a lot of expectation, but showing up fully for each other, that was really a lovely experience.
“I think as an artist, as a creative, my hope is always that in sharing my writing or poetry or whatever it might be, people can see something in me that's reflected back in them. It's like it almost gives them a different lens to see themselves.” -Mariah
Keva- Yeah, for me as well. I always say that creativity is in every little experimentation. It's something that I love to play with, even if I had not done it in a while. But when I told you, let's do it that way, I was like, okay, we should be okay with five days or more having memos of both of us.
We're strangers at first, but after five days, when you listen at each other, there's something that just breaks down. And as you said, there's a lot of resonance. We kind of grasp each other's journey, and there's something about voice as well that is really interesting. Something about distance also that reveals a lot about those untold things that you can sense in the voice of someone. So I really, really enjoyed it. I thought it was so like strangers becoming friends pretty quick.
Mariah- It really can. Speaking of distance, I don't think we've told everyone where you're calling in from. So where are you now?
Keva- Oh, my God. In Europe, you actually zoom in the card. Get to France. You zoom in the card again to Paris, the region of Paris. That's where I am. And it's cold. It is raining. But you know what? It's okay.
Mariah- Yeah, well, it's so lovely to connect to someone in Paris. It's a place that I have visited and passed through many times on my way here and there when I was backpacking. So I have a lot of fond memories. And I wanted to ask you, one of the reasons I wanted to visit Paris, and this was, I think I was 20. Oh, my gosh, 26. I celebrated my 26th birthday in Paris. I was 26. And I am a big fan of Hemingway. I had read the book A Moveable Feast, which is set in Paris during a very specific time, and I just fell in love. I fell in love with the setting, with the energy of the way the different artists and writers would meet at these cafes.
So, you know, I was kind of seeing Paris through a certain lens. And I think for a lot of people, especially artists and creatives, it's kind of put on a pedestal, and we kind of have this idealistic image of what Paris is and what it means to us. So I'm just curious if that has influenced your own art making or your own creative path, or maybe if it hasn't really influenced it, and it's just kind of like, it's normal to you to live in Paris and be close to kind of that culture and history.
“I read the book A Moveable Feast, which is set in Paris during a very specific time, and I just fell in love. I fell in love with the setting, with the energy of the way the different artists and writers would meet at these cafes. I think for a lot of people, especially artists and creatives, it's kind of put on a pedestal, and we kind of have this idealistic image of what Paris is and what it means to us.” -Mariah
Keva- I think it's a mix of many things. It's kind of normal. And at the same time, I understand the kind of heritage that is within the city. But again, Paris is not France. So again, I understand that people will have this postcard in the head, having all these artists and painters, Picasso, just walking by, sitting in a cafe, or having their atelier. It still exists today.
And I think the bubbling art culture in Paris is extremely strong. It's a matter of tribes. Again, it works that way, and it has always worked that way. You have to be connected to the right people. So it's the same thing when we're talking about the art world. So the postcard has to face reality.
The thing is that I wasn't born in France. I was born in Cameroon, in Africa, and my parents moved here. So I was pretty young when I came here. But I've always been in the French culture, so it was just like the next step. English and French and bilingual. And I think my first encounter with art was mostly with the Japanese culture, funny enough. So when we moved here, I already had this kind of, because of my parents and my education, I was aware of art.
I was aware of skill sets, of writing. My father is a poet, so I was aware of many things like that and reaching friends. I wasn't in shock. So that's something that helps with the creativity as well. When you enter a new culture, there are things that kind of open themselves to you, and when your eyes can see things. Architecture was my first shock. If I have to talk about shocking, I wasn't looking at architecture before. I was seeing shapes. So if you are creative, you see shapes, you see colors, you see textures.
“If you want to define what is a French style, it's definitely something that is handmade, that has this kind of really detailed and kind of refined kind of elements. But again, it changes all the time, what you can define as French has evolved.” - Keva
But there's something about the architecture in France that has always kind of been an awe for me. But I find that in many other cities and many other countries, when I go to the Scandinavian as well, there's something about architecture that always spoke to me. And without knowing it, it's part of my way of seeing design structure. So in that sense, yes, I dived into the culture and all the different subtleties of it. I went to art school, and a new world came to me, new references.
I don't know if it transformed my way of creating, but I know it was an input. I cannot not see my African background and the art that is part of that. But I've always been kind of, how to say, an Afropolitan, that many things inspire me. Like, as a child, I was deeply into Japanese animes. And you can talk to me about anything else? No, I was just literally in Asia. Okay, so time travel is something I've been doing for a long time. And here in France, there are many different cultures. When I'm outside of France, France is there. So I guess I know the legacy of artists in France. There are many of them that I respect and I value. Philosophers, writers, painters. They are kind of an asset that you bring with you in that way without knowing it.
“The postcard is great, but it's also good to ditch the postcard and go and talk to people. See exactly what it means to be in France, to have that French culture and to seize it.” -Keva
I definitely have a style that is not French in a way. So there's a mixing. If you want to define what is a French style, it's definitely something that is handmade, that has this kind of really detailed and kind of refined kind of elements. But again, it changes all the time, what you can define as French has evolved, and there are many people who are French and who design, you never know they are French.
So it's kind of a funny paradox, I think it's a luxury, for sure. Anywhere you are, you can find inspiration. And France has a specific way of seeing design and seeing art. And it's kind of, we say cocorico. Kind of a prideness, or how do you say it in English? Pretty proud of many things that have been done. Les Lumières and the architecture, fashion, and even sustainable brands.
So there are many good things happening, many good things that have been done, and many good things that are passed on. And for a creative, it's great to be here, it's great to absorb it, but be aware that there are many other places where you can find this. So the postcard is great, but it's also good to know, ditch the postcard and go and talk to people. See exactly what it means to be in France, to have that French culture and to seize it. And that's something I would love to explore more.
Mariah- Get out of Paris once in a while. See the countryside.
Keva- Sorry, you didn't have to tell me. That was too long again.
Mariah- No, it was wonderful. I really loved what you said about considering your influences and your background as an asset, because I've kind of heard the opposite from people and I think even myself, I tend to see some of those things as limitations instead of opportunities or freedoms even.
But some of the feedback I've heard about Paris before is that it's kind of stuck. It's kind of stagnant. It's not as innovative as maybe some of the other cities because it has such a rich heritage and this kind of pride, like you mentioned, maybe it's not as compared to something like Berlin or other places. Maybe it's not as cutting edge, which I don't know if that's true. That's just some feedback that I've heard.
But I think on the other hand, seeing that, like you said, as an asset, as something that you can use to work for you, the rich heritage, the culture, the pride, and even your influences from Cameroon and having a different cultural heritage and your family, I think instead of seeing those things as baggage that can kind of weigh us down, seeing them as tools and seeing them as opportunities, I still kind of struggle with that.
I come from a very small town in the Midwest, and I couldn't wait to get out of there. I was like, get me somewhere far. Like, I want to be in a big city, I want to have a different experience from what I had growing up. And I think as an adult now, I'm beginning to see, okay, how can I use my childhood background or my experiences growing up in a rural town with lots of family close by, playing in the woods, how has that influenced me, and how can I continue to use it and work with it? So I love that you pulled all of those things together.
Keva- That's so lovely. It's true. It can be challenging to see it as a positive asset or a positive outreach or something like that. I would like to ask you, those who were kind of saying Paris was not innovative enough, were they French?
Mariah- Yes, they were.
Keva- We are like that. I was sure, it’s so normal. We're going to say that we're so late. No way. But there are many things happening. We have a bubble of startups even. I think that many things are happening outside. But still, I see innovation here. So I have to recognize that.
Yeah, but there's something else about the fact that where you live, and I guess it's something about aging that gives you that kind of peace wherever you are, you have to be able to create your opportunities, and sometimes you go exactly where you need to be from the outside.
“As an adult now, I'm beginning to see, how can I use my childhood background or my experiences growing up in a rural town with lots of family close by, playing in the woods, how has that influenced me, and how can I continue to use it and work with it?” -Mariah
So put me in New York or whatever, or surrounded by all the people that are going to be needed for me to progress. Okay. But you're there and nothing happens. There's something that is not matching. So sometimes it's not about the location. There's kind of an inside process. Everywhere you are, you have to be able to do something to use what you have, to start with what you have. There are many people that had to extract themselves from where they were because of political situations, because of war, because of, I don't know, economical situations as well, family things or things like that.
So there is a context. But still, when you have the freedom to go wherever you want and where you are may not be the ideal, you have to start where you are the best you can. And sometimes just having that awareness, it gives you a lot of freedom. Because we are movable people. We like to travel. Travel is a tool.
I know that I wished I had traveled more, and I'm like, you, like, take me out, time travel. I have been in Europe a lot, and I thought to myself, like, I would love to go to Asia, settle there and things like that. But you know what? The knowledge that I've gained just by understanding what I can do here I know that once I'm there, I can do whatever I want just because I accepted where I am and what I can work with.
And it opens up your mind. And all those limiting beliefs about it's not enough. This place is not the right one. Those are things I've struggled with because you always think if I was somewhere else, things were better, I'll be surrounded by the right people. I'll have the better connections.
“Everywhere you are, you have to be able to do something to use what you have, to start with what you have.” -Keva
But sometimes it's not about that. It's about the head start, where you are. And that's something my mom tells me all the time. Stop looking outside. Start here, my daughter. I'm like, okay, mom, you're right.
Mariah- I think that's such great wisdom, because I think part of being creative, and I think we touched on this when we were speaking before, is that you're almost, like, channeling something through you. And I think that takes a certain amount of presence and openness and receptivity. And if your mind is resisting being where you are, it wants to be somewhere else. You miss that opportunity. You miss that experience of noticing. And I think it's our attention that can really fill our creative well.
“I think sometimes we don't want to take full power over our agency because it requires effort. It requires effort. And our mind is a great escape artist.” -Mariah
It's like I'm paying attention to what's in front of me right now, even if it's uncomfortable, even if I want to look away, even if I'm pushing against it. There's something about bringing your full attention and your presence and awareness to it that I think can actually really be a catalyst for your creativity to kind of start flowing through. And, yeah, it's so easy to always want to be somewhere else.
And I think something else that you kind of touched on is like, we have a choice, even if for different circumstances, we aren't living where we want to be, or we've had to leave our homeland because of political events or war or really horrible things that we didn't have control over, do we still have a choice in how we respond? Do we still have a choice in how we make the most of it? And I think we do. And I think sometimes we kind of don't want to take full power over our agency because it requires effort. It requires effort. And our mind is a great escape artist.
Keva- That one is good. That one is good.
Mariah- Yeah.
Keva- Thinking about this this morning, the mind and the creative is you really have to distance yourself because there's a war happening. In a way. You know what? Maybe we don't talk about this a lot. As creatives, we tend to think that we are just in our craft, but there's something about understanding how we function, that can help us be better creatives, because we all have the same kind of rabbit hole that happens when we get in those thoughts, am I good enough? Is this going to work? And all of a sudden, it's like all the worst case scenarios that happen.
And as a creative, we know what happens. It freezes us. We are not able to work. We don't see things clearly, and all of a sudden we just postpone and postpone and postpone and postpone. So I really think that understanding the mind and how we are compared to that massive program, I guess it can really help us find more peace and understand that it's okay. It has its own kind of agenda. Agenda, yeah, exactly. But we can still do something, because the more we express ourselves, the more we challenge it.
“I'm not a good artist. Who told you that? Go there, start a project, fail, get back up, come back with a report. Am I a good artist? What is an artist then?” -Keva
Because if we keep doing things that pushes us to become better creatives, all the limiting beliefs that can be programmed in it, they will have no other choice than facing a certain reality that we are kind of challenging those things that comes to us. I'm not a good artist. Who told you that? Go there, start a project, fail, get back up, come back with a report. Am I a good artist? What is an artist then?
Do you think an artist try to just picture that anytime, that thing, because it's literally a story of a creative. I don't know why it's specifically in this field. I really don't know why that kind of cloud. Maybe it's because of the craft, because of the mission of it. But always that pressure imposter syndrome. Why on earth do we have that? Please.
Mariah- Yeah, that's something that's hard to understand and get to the root of. I think for me, comparing myself to other people that are farther ahead on their journey than I am is something I do more often than I would like to admit. Just that comparison that creeps up and it kind of taints the creative process.
I think when you start looking at what other people have done and why am I not where they are? I think it's something we all struggle with. And I think just learning to accept it and learning to give ourselves grace when we kind of start having those thoughts of impostor syndrome or comparing ourselves to others, knowing that it's just so common.
And I think that's one reason I love having these conversations with other creatives, is because we can connect on those things that maybe we might feel internal shame about and we might feel uncomfortable even admitting to each other. But then it's like, me, too, I also have this struggle. Even the amount of success that I've had and doing XYZ, it still comes up. And I think you hear that people that are highly successful at their craft, that have mastered it, that have received external accolades, there is this human tendency to always have that self doubt.
"When you start looking at what other people have done and why am I not where they are? I think it's something we all struggle with. I think just learning to accept it and learning to give ourselves grace when we start having those thoughts of impostor syndrome or comparing ourselves to others, knowing that it's just so common.” -Mariah
So I don't know if there's a way to get rid of it, or maybe we just learn to live with it and learn to work with it and be compassionate towards ourselves, tend to ourselves. And I think the more connections we make and the more we collaborate with each other, I think those voices get a little bit softer and a little bit more gentle, and they're not as loud in our heads, because I really do think connection is the antidote to so many feelings of unworthiness or feeling like I'm all alone in this. Yeah, that's just kind of how I've been playing with it for the last few years.
Keva- Yeah, I totally agree. You're right. Connections can really put a light on something that we tend to want to handle alone, which is a good thing. There are things that we have to handle alone. But at some point in any journey, I think those voices become friends at some point in time.
When I was saying that you have to face the mind and come with a report, it's literally that every time you speak to someone and you share your project, anything you're doing, you're speaking it to the universe, you're speaking it to someone, and you just never know what may happen. And that's something I've experienced in many projects that I've had to work with the daredness to even say, okay, it's in my head now. I'm speaking it. Guess what? That thing that I spoke, someone is saying, oh, yeah, let's do this. Okay.
So just that process just relieves you and the feedback. You may be positive or negative, but you have something tangible that is growing and moving, and it gives you a sense of clarity and peace. As you were saying, I love the word grace. It's something that we receive every day.
“Every time you speak to someone and you share your project, anything you're doing, you're speaking it to the universe, you're speaking it to someone, and you just never know what may happen.” -Keva
So as those voices and all those challenges to just accept who we are with today, it's a daily thing. So if we have a peer that is there that we can talk to, many peers that we can talk to, as you do, you talk to other creatives, it nourishes you, and it gives you this sense of we're all in this together. And that's just it. If you are in step ten and I'm in step 20 or whatever, it doesn't matter because I know what it feels like, I was there. I know what it feels like because I'm hoping to be there.
“If we have a peer that is there that we can talk to, many peers that we can talk to, as you do, you talk to other creatives, it nourishes you, and it gives you this sense of we're all in this together.” -Keva
So I think you're definitely right. It's conversations, and just making those connections. We're all working in this together, and we all have to do our part. We all have to express that creativity because it bubbles up and it's not good to keep it inside as well.
Mariah- Yeah. I really like what you said about speaking it out loud. It's like you're giving life to it. You're breathing air into it. And that is so important to share those ideas, to say them out loud. And I think I've kind of struggled with, I'm such an ideas person that sometimes I get a little bit ahead of myself. And there is something about in the early stages of your idea or your creative project, kind of like nurturing it and kind of not maybe telling the whole world about it until it's a little farther along on its journey.
But having a supportive friend or mentor or someone that you can share that with kind of in its infant stages, that will give you that encouragement or give you that just trust in you, that you can see it through and that it will become something that you have a vision for.
“That's something that we can really do for each other along the way, is to give each other those little notes or hold that space for each other. And just to say, like, I see you, I hear you, keep going. You're doing great.” -Mariah
I think it's so important and it's so valuable. I know that those little conversations of encouragement or just little even comments on different newsletters, it really does make a big difference to the creative just to know, like, someone read something I wrote and they took the time to reflect on it and share it with me, and it's so important.
And so I think that's something that we can really do for each other along the way, is to give each other those little notes or hold that space for each other. And just to say, like, I see you, I hear you, keep going. You're doing great.
Keva- Yeah. As you said, it's really something that can leave someone during the day. It's true that when I started my letters, I use them as tools for myself. So you can state that I am a selfish creative, but a selfish creative that also use it for other people. But I see these as tools for myself, and hopefully they can serve.
So I never thought, okay, the person on the other side. But once I started receiving comments, I'm like, okay, someone is really reading this. I receive emails like, oh, but really? Someone really kind of read it and even got the extra mile. So there's someone at the end of it, and whatever kind of platform it is, it can be a piece of art and just post it and you don't know who will stumble on it.
I've met people who just out of the blue, send me email. Like this woman, she's on Twitter. I'm not on Twitter. And she stumbled on one of my series of illustrations from GFI, and she said, I love this. She posted it on Twitter and things like that. I'm like, what? I'm not even this. So it's just interesting how anyone can be that light in your day.
Just to confirm that, you know what? This is what I want you to focus on. We kind of not see these are really important things. You have people that you know that come and support you and people that you're not aware of that come and kind of confirm something that you're doing. I'm highly spiritual, so I understand that those kind of signals that happens when on a project, and all of a sudden, I'm doubting. I'm like, it's not working. There's something wrong. I receive an email or something like that saying, please, when are you going to post this? Okay, I see that there's something there.
Mariah- Like a synchronicity.
Keva- Exactly. So I know that all these different things that we need can come and support us. So the better is to have that kind of tribe that you can really feel confident to speak about and share. It's important to have your bubble, you know, that inner bubble that is important to nurture your projects. Like, if you have an idea, spend some time with your idea first. Spend some chatty time with it, because it's a living thing and it can take you places you never expected to go, but spend some time with it.
And then, okay, after that time is done, then what? Go and test it, challenge it, and possibly make it something tangible. But that bubble is important. I'm not the kind to just have lots of ideas and things like that. I'll speak to myself first, and then, okay, we have gone through this process, then I'll say, okay, hey, what do you think about this? But maybe do you think it's a great idea? And what do you think? Just next step could be done? So I kind of see a process of it. There's the moment that you have to spend with it, and then after you have to kind of present it to your inner circle, and then you extend it to that bigger circle and et cetera, et cetera.
But always having this back and forth, this respiration, because that is how it will really kind of confirm that it is valuable for you, tangible for you, possible for you. Yeah, I guess.
“It can be confusing sometimes to know, okay, am I doing this for me because I love it and I can't not do it? Or am I also trying to create a business out of it? And I do need to be mindful of the consumer or the end user or the audience? That tension, I think, is something that I feel. I'm curious how you navigate that.” -Mariah
Mariah- Yeah. No, I think that's important, being able to kind of almost offer this protection, like a seed has this kind of hard shell on it, and it's like you have to bury it in the ground and then the shell kind of comes open and it starts to grow. So I love finding metaphors in nature for the creative process because I think there's a lot of similarities for how things grow and how things become on our creative journey.
I'm kind of curious. I really agree with you when you said that you're almost putting out your letters in a kind of selfish way because you need the tools for yourself. I feel like as a writer, so often what I'm writing about is just something that I'm really trying to understand or I'm trying to process it or make sense of it.
So I think in that way, the motivation is selfish as well. And then I'm hoping that by sharing it, it will connect with others, it will offer them something in return. But I'm curious as to kind of how you see that balance, because I've been seeing a lot of just kind of messaging about, pay attention to your audience, make sure that you're always centering your audience and you're creating for your audience.
And I think that's important. But then there's also messages from other people that are like, stay true to you. If you're creating for the audience, you're going to lose that special something that makes you you. So I think it can be confusing sometimes to kind of know, okay, am I doing this for me because I love it and I can't not do it? Or am I also trying to create a business out of it? And I do need to be mindful of the consumer or the end user or the audience. That tension, I think, is something that I feel. And I think I'm curious how you navigate that.
“I was speaking to creatives but at the core, I was just speaking to versions of me when I was younger.” -Keva
Keva- That's a brilliant question and a hot topic as well. I think in January, I did my kind of first kind of master class or thing like that. And it really came to me like I was speaking to creatives, but at the core, I was just speaking to versions of me when I was younger. And one thing that has always been kind of true is that I never really had a niche.
Like, I tried to conform because of no freelancing, having a branding studio, thinking you have to conform to a certain kind of persona. I did that at the beginning, years ago, and then I just dropped it. And I was like, you have to create following a persona. You have to know exactly who's this person? When he wakes up, relax. Okay? I like to investigate, but please. So it's good to know. I'm not trying to say that it's not a good to know. It's important to know your data. Who is the one behind on the other side? And the more you have information, the better you can craft your message towards them. But the balance is not an easy one. And I think the core is really understanding why you're doing what you're doing and where you stand and how you can be useful.
Because anything you create, whatever it is, a poem, a novel, a book, whatever, even a company, you have to make this encounter happen, and it doesn't happen if you're not there. You have to be part of it, and the person on the other side has to be part of it.
But what is the middle that makes it happen? It's a mixture of that no one can have the formula for it. It's something that no one has, only those two that encounters. It's so real. It's like alchemy. You come into the space, you have your personality and things like that, and you have the other person on the other side who maybe like what you are, but maybe different things that you are. But what makes him just magnetized to you at that specific place, location, moment, article, piece, whatever. Something no one can really understand. But just because you decided to understand who is behind there. But it's not even that person. It's actually why he would need to read what you have to say. And that why stands in your own personal journey, your own personal pain points that you had to overcome, because you're able to understand that and start from you.
“The core is really understanding why you're doing what you're doing and where you stand and how you can be useful.” -Keva
Like, I write about creativity. Why do I write about creativity? Because I'm a freaking creative. And I go through, and I've gone through stuff, and I just want to be able, as you said, process things, investigate things, because I want to learn more, because it's something I'm interested in.
“I think the first question for creative is, why not?” -Keva
There's a curiosity there, and on the other side, there's a creative there who is just interesting. I'm a creative. I'm struggling with this. I'm interested by this. I'm not doing this enough. Bam, the encounter happened. But you have to start somewhere. And I think that what happened is that I dropped the niche.
And then I found myself in this process of writing, following my call, my instructions that come to me. I see something in the world. I see something, the design field, I see. Just listen to people and I say, okay, why? Nobody is talking about this. Then I'll go there and just playfully, like a child. Oh, yeah. Why not? Why not? I think the first question for creative is, why not?
Mariah- Why not?
Keva- Why not? And from there, whatever has to happen will happen. But it doesn't mean that you just create for yourself. The intention is you starting to create for yourself. Like, you have something that you went through, you understand more. Understand more how you can be a better creative and how you can have a better process, like the ideation, the crafting and things like that. And you have to be able to craft it.
I love the word crafting because it's a matter of using your freaking hands and put your hands in the material. And because you're doing that, you understand that someone is going to read it. And you know that person because you were that person. I think that's something that really hits me, is that at the end of the day, when I read even some of my letters, I'm like, thank God I wrote it. I needed this message. And that version of me, like, one year ago, who had whatever kind of spark to just talk about this. How could she know that today, one year later, I would need to hear specifically that paragraph, that word, that injunction.
“The way that your own art or your own writing can speak to you through time, I think, is really powerful.” -Mariah
Mariah- Yes, that's something I think we should talk about more is the timelessness of even, like, I'll go back through old journals and I'm just like, oh, my gosh, who is this person writing these words on the page? The way that your own art or your own writing can speak to you through time, I think, is really powerful. And I just feel, like, privileged that that happens because I can't explain it.
But like you said, it's almost like this past version of yourself speaking to future you. But also there was the version of you that wrote it in that present moment as well. And so there's, like, this intersection that's very cool, this conversation between you and different versions of yourself.
Keva- Yeah. And what is funny is that those different versions exist as other people. Once you understand that as well, like your journey, I resonate. I'm not a mom yet. I know my mom, my sister is a mom. I know how challenging that is to be a mother and to create. So it's cold. So I have a little cough there. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. A granny here with a tea. Sometimes I forget that this is recorded and people are going to listen to.
Mariah- No, I think bring all of it. Right. This is human experience, right?
Keva- Exactly. So your journey, I resonate with it because you kind of look into, I'm not there yet but how does she do it? Maybe I will need it in a few years. So in that same process is the same thing for you today. Who is doing this? And six months from now, you listening to this? So I think that time travel is really something we can really take advantage of.
We don't have the device yet, but still we're doing it. And once we are able to see that and play with that, I guess it gives us also this kind of confidence. Like, you know what? The message is timeless. It would always reach the person that needs it.
“There are some things that have momentum that takes more time to reach the audience or specific people that we resonate with it. But once it's out, it becomes something that is living and it will find its time.” -Keva
That's also something, I think when I post something, I don't see any kind of engagement or whatever. I'm like, it's okay. It was created for a specific person and it will reach him. That's it. It may be me. I know. I hope it's not going to be only me. I really hope that will be no, because we are in this kind of magma of information, like, you never know when the connections happen.
So there are some things that have momentum that takes more time to reach the audience or specific people that we resonate with it. But once it's out, it becomes something that is living and it will find its time. So maybe that's something that can relieve creatives as well. Some people who don't find success now, who don't see the results now. And we have to understand that we all have different journeys and some things that we create with all our heart, and they don't kind of show any return in an investment. How can we know that we are in a moment? We don't know.
“Am I experiencing a sense of fun, a sense of delight? Are my creative projects serving me while I'm doing them? Because maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough for now.” -Mariah
Mariah- There's almost a sense of arrogance when you assume that just because you don't have an immediate response or reaction, that that means it hasn't reached someone. I think, yeah, the timelessness of art is really powerful. And I'm thinking about that. I don't know if you know it, but there's like a song that gained a lot of popularity, but it was like decades old, and it regained popularity because it was on a popular television series, and suddenly it's like a number one hit again.
There's this idea of things being recycled, being reused, being repurposed. And I have not really written on my blog that I started when I was solo backpacking around the world. But once in a while I'll still get young girls that email me and they're like, oh, my gosh, I just found your blog. I'm thinking about traveling. What kind of advice do you have? And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this post is ten years old. It's so cool how that happens sometimes, and you don't know how or when, but trusting the process, and I think something I've been trying to focus on, too, is like, am I experiencing joy while I'm creating?
Am I experiencing a sense of fun, a sense of delight? Are my creative projects serving me while I'm doing them? Because maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough for now. And when we release it into the world, we kind of have to release that sense of control over them. And I like what you said about our creations being living beings in the world, and they kind of do take on a life of their own.
Keva- Yeah. Little children. Yeah. You don't sleep. You create them, you launch it, and then you're like, oh, my goodness, when are you going to grow? And then you just move on.
The thing that there's this kind of gear, like, there's something that I realize and that I'm doing more and more. It starts with having this big vision and the big vision is made of little visions inside of them, and there's this kind of urgency, like, okay, I do something, I want to do it. I go to the fullest of it. It's something that becomes like the book or something like that. It's there. It's tangible. Once it's done, let's move to the next one.
“Whatever we create has a mission, has a purpose. Even if it's play, play also has a purpose.”
-Keva
So I like that flexibility. So once it's done, let it do its thing. One thing with our field is that even if we leave it, we have this gift to the world. There's this kind of responsibility to kind of push it a little bit more into the world. Right. And that's something that we have to learn to do to. It's a matter of our ease. Do you want to do it or not? You can just post something or launch something and just forget it, and it will find its time.
You can put a little bit of fire and just grow up, baby, grow up, little boy, little girl, and see what it go, what happens. But it's not mandatory, so you have to be aware that you have to still be strategic. And because of the effort that you poured into it, even if it's from your core and it's from your heart, it's play and fun. It has a mission.
Whatever we create has a mission, has a purpose. Even if it's play, play also has a purpose. So it's a matter of having this two kind of vision. Not for every project, for sure, because some projects will demand more effort, and you will be aware that you have to put in the effort. But for those that are really simple and fun and you really are happy with it, just being out there without any kind of accolades, it's perfectly fine. They're grown ups anyway. Yeah. You just have to have that discernment.
“Seeing the creative process as something beyond just the act of the creativity, being able to market yourself, spread the word, drum up that enthusiasm, that energy, I think it can make a lot of creatives very uncomfortable. And if you don't approach it from the right mindset, I think it can be exhausting.” -Mariah
Mariah- I think that's a really important point because I think sometimes we kind of stall, I think, at what we believe is, like, the end of our creation. It's like, okay, I've written the book, and then now I'm done. But really, if you want that book to be out in the world, there are so many more steps involved after that. And so seeing the creative process as something beyond just the act of the creativity, but then kind of being able to market yourself or market your project or tell people about it, spread the word, kind of drum up that enthusiasm, that energy, I think it can make a lot of creatives very uncomfortable. And if you don't approach it from the right mindset, I think it can be exhausting.
So kind of knowing when to keep pushing and when to keep going and kind of see it along a little bit further. And what your goal is for that project. I'm in the middle of doing round two of querying for my book, and so it is kind of a little bit of a tedious process. But I'm like, I'm showing up because I'm committed to myself and I have a responsibility to all of the time that I've put into writing the book.
And my responsibility is to do my best to follow through with the other part of it, which is to hopefully release it into the world. So I think when we see it that way, we can honor ourselves in our full creative process and say, you know what? I spent so much time on this product, I poured my heart into it. I'm going to stick with it. I'm going to stick with it until I get it published in a certain magazine or until I have this amount of visibility. I'm going to keep working with it. But it's hard. It takes perseverance.
Keva- Yeah. So true. And by the way, I'll need your help for this queries. I will need your feedback and mostly your tips. How do you do that? Maybe you could do, like a letter specifically on that because we need it.
Mariah- It's hard, and I'm just new at it, so I'm also learning with you. I'm just doing my best, but it can be very overwhelming to start that process. So, yeah, I'd be happy to share more. Maybe we'll have to have like a workshop or something.
Keva- Okay. Keep that in mind. For sure.
Mariah- Yeah. Well, it's been so lovely talking with you. I'll probably need to wrap up. The baby will be awake pretty soon, but I just wanted to give you maybe one more chance to kind of talk about work that you have that's upcoming that people maybe can connect to or a certain project you'd like to share with others so we can kind of learn more about your work and see what you're doing in the world.
Keva- First of all, it was a wonderful and lovely flow and I love these kind of conversations. It happens in the moment and it's the best thing. I just want to come back to what you said about having, for example, your book or any project and doing your best. There's also one trick, is that when you are in the building of, you're in multiple in one. You can also realize that the multiple can serve one. You have, for example, a project and you live it in the world and you move on.
You moving on will be that catalyzer for that thing that you left behind to be visible. So everything works together for the good again. As you grow and as you do your projects, as you expand and strengthen yourself, you never know which project you left behind will find a little bit more light. So everything works together because it's you. So the best thing you can do is just keep growing and creating and becoming a better creative. And we didn't talk about creative leadership, but that is what it means. You have to stand your ground, take your chances, because you are the one that is leading and that voice is extremely needed. You never know who is the one that is listening because you are the one that is speaking.
So I don't know if it resumes what I do with my studio, but it's part of the bubble, like an ecosystem, a hub where you can find inspiration, motivation to become a better brand builder, but also to understand that branding is so down to earth process. It's not that complicated at the end. It's just the building is the most difficult part because you need some massive resources and leverages. But the moment you just say I am and I do this, that's it. Go and prove it now and improve it is exactly the building.
“You have to stand your ground, take your chances, because you are the one that is leading and that voice is extremely needed. You never know who is the one that is listening because you are the one that is speaking.” -Keva
And that's what I have tried to do with my studio. When I'm doing in my studio today, I believe my newsletters are like the fresh air of the studio. You can find the mindset, the toolkits, the building part and understood. You have products that you can start using and just proactive things, you can start thinking and getting to your next step. So I see my studio as this creative bubble, this business bubble as well, because you have to have the entrepreneurial standing and you also have this mindset that goes with it.
Like this place where you go and find your inspiration and just get to work and all of that with the visual power that I keep growing because I'm an illustrator, because I craft stories. Right now I'm writing a book about branding and it is a heavy, heavy load.
Mariah- Congratulations just for beginning.
Keva- But it's so fun to do. I think it was something that had started like years ago, but it's such a fun process and I see the roadmap, I see the end of it. So it's all about having those different steps towards it. So that's it. So I think by next year you have a book, maybe several books to read from me.
Mariah- That's amazing.
Keva- And for sure the letters and my illustrations and stuff you can find on my studio. So that's it for me.
Mariah- So many offerings. We'll link all of the newsletters and your website and everything in our post that we share. I did want to kind of just talk a little bit about, we've mentioned it several times, but I don't know if we fully explained our experiment, our Q&A, but we will also share those. So people will have a chance to kind of hear us ask each other questions and then respond and have a little back and forth with some time in between. And then we're going to have an invitation to maybe have others do the same. So it's a work in progress, but stay posted because I think it was such a great experiment and opportunity. And so I think we kind of wanted to share that experience with others.
Keva- Anyway, they'll have all the information on the post. I think hopefully next week they'll be able to start diving into it and we're going to prompt them to do something fun as well. It's all about passing the baton, right?
Mariah- Yes, I love that. Well, thanks again for your time. I've really enjoyed it. Have a lovely rest of your afternoon, and yeah, we'll be in touch again soon.
Keva- Thank you for inviting me. It was lovely. Salut.
Mariah- Salut. Bye.
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Thank you for inviting me Mariah! It came out really well and it was a lovely talk ✨️